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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Sorry if there is another thread regarding such, I can't seem to find it.

I see often people putting there dogs on the ground roll them on back and holding down the neck of the dog and human body holding dog down, for barking? I think this is how it goes ??I try to watch as I walk by and dogs barking then I pass and watch the owner do this to the dog, I think there is some kinda purpose in this what dunno yet?........I personally would not do this. Why? it looks demining(ok it's a dog, but i tend to look at dogs like they have human emotions) mistake perhaps..... and i kinda feel soft when this happens.

How many of you do this?

and why? so I may understand?

thank you.
 

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It is a theory and one I don't think would work with a beagle which suggests that they way to train a animal is to become the Alpha animal in the pack and to establish your dominance by this action. I've have watched a 95 Lb girl throw a 135 Lb German Sheppard down and it appeared to work on that dog for that girl BUT I believe beagles are way too independent thinkers and too pack oriented to respond to that type of training! I once rescued a German Sheppard and he responed and trained real easy with just kindness and love. I just don't understand why people would approach animals like that except perhaps it is easy or maybe they are the aggressive animals themselves, and taking out their aggression on helpless criiters is safer than on trying it on someone who might fight back!
 

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Its what they told us to do in puppy class but I don't like it and after trying it (unsuccessfully) a few times with Maggie I decided I would prefer to use a different approach.
 

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Yes, this is the Alpha position or role that is suppose to train a dog to learn who is in charge in the pack. It is a method I don't like and will not use - I think there are other methods one can use to establish dominence or who is the real boss. While Beagles are true pack animals, they really need firm guidance - not punishment or physical force in order to learn what they need in order to successfully fit in your family. And if they were using this for barking - that is really horrible - the dog is only trying to communicate something just as humans may talk. (But then I do know some parents who use physical punishment on a child for talking to much - definitely wrong)
 

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There are different methods of using it. Lets say for starters, you don't hold them down by the neck. Rather gently lay them down on their sides, with one hand on each end of the body, not their necks. We use this method as a LAST RESORT with Kenya whenever she gets into this hyper and mischievous mode, and she doesn't respond to our voice. WE DON'T USE THIS METHOD FOR BARKING. At the same time, I use my thumb and fingers to give her a gentle massage. It calms her down within a matter of a couple minutes.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
I know it was just for barking in each case. nothing more, (cause the dogs, theirs and mine would do such in passing to eachother..... than I always thought am I missing something? what is this their doing.?? then it happened again early this morning and I just had to ask.

Thank you all for explaining it, and what it's used for, and the proper way of dog it. it's rough how they do this to the dogs....there is no massaging involved , it makes me sad.
I suppose there are a lot of different techs for teaching dogs, however this is not one I care to use for just barking not to mention I think these people are doing it wrong, seeing from your posts on how it's to be done proper.
 

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First of all - don't fall into the trap of thinking that dogs think and feel like we do, they don't, their brain works in different ways and it is very damaging to assume they think like we do.

The reason behind the alpha roll is pretty flawed - people who use it claim that in wild dog packs alpha dogs do it to lower pack members to assert dominance. This is actually incorrect - true alpha do not need to use physical force to dominant other pack members, and this line of thinking started when researchers saw a lower pack member approach the alpha - the alpha stood over it, and the lower pack member automatically submissed. A true alpha does not need to use physical force as the lower pack members already respect him.

The alpha roll is a good way to get bitten. Cesar Milan who you can often see using it on his TV show is often bitten by dogs when he does it. I don't know about everyone else, but when I train my dogs and handle other peoples dogs I do everything I can NOT to get bitten. I would never use a confrontational method with a dog who exhibits aggression as they very may well take you up on the challenge.

I have no problem with aversive methods or tools but this is one that I fail to see the merit in. It scares me when I see Joe Blow doing it to his dog for ridiculous reasons - such as the example in the OP where the dog was barking. Exactly what is that supposed to achieve? Dogs don't often bark out of dominance they bark out of boredom, lack of stimulation, over stimulation, because they haven't been trained to have nice doggy manners or because they are feeling threatened or scared etc. What a silly and odd thing to do to a dog that is barking!

When Daisy was going through her adolescent, challenging age I had a problem with her growling when I tried to move her off the lounge. I was told to growl at her and scruff her, and forcefully move her off the lounge. It did nothing but make her worse and she actually snapped at me and bit me (not hard but hard enough). I contacted our behaviourist who set me straight and told me to TEACH her instead, teach her the off command luring her off with a treat and rewarding her when she gets 'off'.

I did and she had no problems getting off the lounge. It didn't take long until I could get her off without having a treat. I can now pick her up off the lounge or move her and she doesn't growl or show any negative body language.

This is one instance where physical confrontation did not work because Daisy took me up on the challenge. This is where the danger lies when you use methods like the alpha roll. It's also a pretty poor way to communicate with your dog, there are many more guaranteed effect ways to train them - and like the dogs in the wild, if you are a true alpha you won't need to use physical force because your dog already respects you. If you 'need' to use the alpha roll, physical force, to dominate and get your dog to comply with your commands then you have bigger issues that can't be fixed by pinning the dog to the ground - doing so is not going to get the dog to respect you or see you as alpha.

I only use negative reinforcement (a quick check on their collars or a voice correction etc) with my dogs if they fail to comply to a known command - you don't use punishment to teach a dog, it's hardly fair to correct them for a behaviour they don't know or understand.
 

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Interesting you just posted this because we have been having a heck of a time with biting. I know she is only six weeks, but it almost seems like she is getting mean. I read about this (at last resort, putting them on back, holding chest firmly while telling them no bite until they stop squirming) and have been doing it. I swear she is meaner than before! I hate to say it, but I feel like I have a little demon puppy! Even the kids are calling her killer , etc., and it's causing no one to even want to play with her. I'm getting a little worried! The only time we are liking her lately is when she is sleeping or just waking up! Today I just started a different approach, putting my thumb in her mouth with forefinger underneath when she gets bad. This little girl is starting to growl and attacks hard! I don't know where she is getting this from. I almost hate to wake up in the mornings!!
 

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I've never been a fan of it. I don't see the use for it. Positive training and re-inforcement will get you a lot further, especially with a Beagle. At least in my experience. Jersey will do virtually anything for a treat. I'm pretty lucky though, Jersey is a pretty well behaved girl.
 

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So...how do you do positive reinforcement for biting? Praise her when she doesn't bite? I've been trying that, but it's like it just goes right over her head. In the mean time, what do you recommend when a puppy does bite, and it hurts. When she is awake, that is all she does. That and bite your heals when you walk.
 

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If she bites, turn away. Don't give her the attention she's wanting. Turn around, count to 10, then try again.
After so many times of not getting what she wants, she'll figure it out.
Also ensure she has plenty of chew toys!



As for the original post -- I've never seen this done, but can see why people think it'd work. Certainly not on a beagle, and never in this house, though! Positive reinforcement goes such a long way.
 

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Originally Posted By: ShoppySo...how do you do positive reinforcement for biting? Praise her when she doesn't bite? I've been trying that, but it's like it just goes right over her head. In the mean time, what do you recommend when a puppy does bite, and it hurts. When she is awake, that is all she does. That and bite your heals when you walk.
I am far from a purely positive trainer, IMO we can't ignore all the other aspects of dog training and don't forget that even voice corrections are negative reinforcement.

Your pup will be harder to train because she needs to learn about bite inhibition - because she missed learning that lesson from her littermates. I would do what other pups do when they bite too hard, yelp and move your hand away. When she stops biting give her praise and a treat, or redirect her to a toy so she knows what she can bite. The instance she bites again, yelp, and praise her when she stops.

I also find putting my thumb down on the bottom jaw can be helpful, but the key as always is consistency, and remember that not all methods work on all dogs - if that makes her worse try the above and stick to it. 6-8 weeks is the age pups normally rely on the other litter mates to learn social skills so the next two weeks will be a crucial time for you to teach her what is acceptable and what isn't.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
wow more great info, I'm learning a lot by all this.

it's hard to think like a dog or learn everything about canine behavour, it's taking me awhile and with the ruff patches I had with Charlie when I first adopted him, I think back, and think to myself MAN BUDDY you've come a long way *sigh* and it's not even been that long.......................Beagleworld had really helped us understand dogs and beagles in general *thank you beagleworld*

I watched Charlie since the neighbours pup was adopted 11 months ago, so she's just over 1 and some, and Charlie will be 3 in Sept.....and when they are together and she barks and barks Charlie places his mouth over top hers gently and she stops barking, I did not know even what that was...and neighbors told me cause he's teaching her manners and dogs do that to younger dogs.......? I don't know if it's true, but now when I see it it's very Endearing how they interact regarding that......

I just wish Charlie would do this to his Brother, I don't know why he does not, because they are roughly the same age? they r equal in dog world to each other.... Anyhow, by Charlie doing this to Seven the other dog, I have been doing hands over Rolo's snout and say shhhhhh..when we barks to much in the house He's not fazed By it...
However Charlie did learn by that 1 or twice.......and When mumma says, mumma come see what's there he stops barking having me check what the yaps about and he stops, this is in the house unless of course it's another animal he sees from window , He's getting better though, he's come a long way,

As for walks they get a Shhhhh then quick yank on leash, they do pretty good considering, each dog is different in personalities, Charlie,,,, I will jog with to get his attention focused elsewhere, Rolo just has to come along if he's with us on our walk at the time. Or we stop dead in our tracks (firm hold on leash...and they go nowhere till the nuttiness is gone.

Charlie works on positiveness and soft touches and spoken words he tends to like it.......

Rolo on the other hand is a different story, I don't know what works for him yet regarding a lot of things, the things that I have worked out with Charlie, don't work for Rolo. So another breed of dog, man being a parent sure is challenging...lol


Imagine what it would be like to be a dog for a full 24 hours, lol *
 

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Originally Posted By: ShoppyI hate to say it, but I feel like I have a little demon puppy! Even the kids are calling her killer , etc., and it's causing no one to even want to play with her. I'm getting a little worried!
Ah, she's just a very little puppy who hasn't learnt this stuff from her mother and littermates, you and your family are just going to have be really really patient - both in understanding her and training her. The ideas the others have suggested are good but won't work instantly - you all have to be super-consistent so she gets the same message from everyone. What worked best for me when Beaglina was a devil puppy was turning my back on her and folding my arms - but it varies. Also, plenty of toys you and your family can use when playing with her would be good - that way she gets plenty of interaction and you don't get bitten!
 

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When we first got Jersey she was always biting at us, especially when she was playing and got too excited. We tried tons of things trying to get her to stop and nothing worked except this. Mike taught her to fetch a toy. Then, every time she got to the point where she was nipping, we'd tell her to go and fetch. When she'd get a toy and bring it back she got rewarded. It didn't take her long to make the connection and soon whenever she got that excited she went and got a toy. It taught her to re-direct that energy onto something that she was allowed to chew and saved our hands. Still to this day, when she gets excited she runs and gets one of her toys.
 

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Ohhhh good idea, Jen! I've been doing the same sort of thing with my puppies, but I don't have a lot of time to be terribly consistent with it because I often have to play with both puppies at the same time (when Evan is at work). If they get too rambunctious, I startle them by hitting a rolled up newspaper on the countertop, which gets them to stop. Then, I try to get them to play with their toys.

I've read that giving dogs ropes makes them aggressive too. I find this interesting because I have never witnessed that before. My neighbor's schnauzer was never aggressive like that, and he always had tug toys.
 
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