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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
As a last resort to prevent Daisy from escaping at the dog park, I got an e collar. Ummm....not working. I put it on Daisy at home, and she simply laid down. If I could get her to walk around at all, it was a totally hunkered down crawl. ~sigh~. Perhaps her previous owners used one on her improperly, or she just didn't like the feel of it. (She is small, and it's kind of a big unit.) I don't know. She looked so pitiful, I took it off. Never even turned it on. We went to the dog park anyway, and stayed on the small dog side, where (so far), she can't get out. My problem is that my other dog Lola, (35# shepherd/hound mix), plays a little too rough for the small dogs, so being in that area doesn't always work. Luckily today there was a scrappy little dog that played just like Lola does, so they got along fine.

I did try the collar on Lola in the yard, and it worked for her. (I used it on myself first, to see how it felt, because I was concerned that I would hurt her. I could feel level 1 - a tingly buzzy feeling that was a little startling but not painful in the least.) Lola didn't feel level 1 at all, but did respond to level 2. Didn't yelp, just jumped back and looked around like WTH was that?! I can see how it could be helpful for some dogs in some situations, but I'm not sure Lola really needs it. Her main issue is playing too rough, and if I use it for that, I think it would make her scared of other dogs.

So, another $100 and Daisy remains the renegade in the family...
 

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We've had an invisible fence for several years, along with a handheld remote trainer collar that we've used for some corrective training.

It does take a little getting used to. I agree with Sephly, just put it on and let Daisy get accustom to it. Give it at least a week or so before you start using the collar for corrections.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
That was my plan, but if you could have seen the look on her little face

I'll look at one that is made for little dogs and see if I think it might not be as obvious to her.
 

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My Daisy will sometimes look pathetic even when I put her harness on her. Especially if she moves in a way that puts the leash near her face. She kind of hunkers to the side and gets this really sad look. But once we're out walking she totally forgets about it!
 

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What training program are you using with the e-collar?

They aren't the kind of tool you can just buy and use without some guidance.

They are very effective but you have to use them properly to get the best result. Proper e-collar training can take months to perfect, like with any training it won't happen over night.

You can buy an e-collar manual here, I know it's a site based in Australia but they will send their products overseas (prices are in Oz dollars). This manual comes free when you buy the collar from the website but you can also buy it separately. It was written by a very qualified, reputable and experienced dog behaviourist and trainer (who I know in real life so I can definitely guarantee the quality!)

http://www.k9force.net/index.html?row2col2=manual.html
 

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When our girls were puppies, we hired a professional trainer and it cost way too much. Anyway, first she worked them with a pinch collar, which worked but the girls could not use it inside as they got locked together. They also did not enjoy walks so she then used the e collar and trained us properly. Well it worked for Brandy, but made her quiet and nervous. Cecil, however, would do whatever she wanted to do regardless. Her little mouth would quiver and she would just say no to whatever it was. I told the trainer at the next session about this and she had to prove me right so she put it on the top level and little Cecil's mouth just quivered and she did her stubborn beagle act and refused to obey. I was so upset over all of this, I called my vet. He told me to take that shock collar off immediately and quit using the pinch collar. He told me train beagles with patience, repetition and treats, which we have done from that time on. They are happy 3-1/2 year old dogs, who know how to sit and do so unless overly excited. They come when called except when they have escaped although when we say get home they do so. They were totally potty trained in no time. They sit and wait to be feed and so on. I just agree with my vet that beagles are not the type of breed to use a corrective collar on. This is just my opinion.
 

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I'd try taking it back and explaining your problems with it to the manager. I don't believe anyone should be out $100 because something doesn't work.
 

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I have used an e-collar on my danes with great success. I must admit though that I have only had to ever shock them each only 3 or 4 times ever total! My collars also have the beep warning function. The beep warning is only thing I ever have to use now on them. The beagle is just now beginning his training since he is just about 7 months old. I haven't even attempted to shock him. We are just now using the beep (warning) training method and will slowly work up to the shock training (if needed.) It can be a very useful tool if used properly.
 

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I cannot understand why so many people on this Forum have to use shock treatment to make their hounds behave,
I have had Beagles for 28 years and have never had to resort to shocking them into submission.
My hounds are all allowed to run free in suitable areas and have a reasonable Recall.This has been achieved by teaching them with kindness not punishment.
 

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I use the shock collar because I have 600 acres that my guys run on. It is not feasible to fence in 600 acres of property so the shock collar is used to train them where my property ends and the next farm begins. It is much more effective than continuously having to border train them on that many acres. However, when they are at the house, not on the farm, the shock collars are off of them. My dogs are all Canine Good Citizens through the American Kennel Club, several of my dogs of the years have or have had Therapy Dog International Titles and all have been trained using positive reinforcement training methods plus several have been trained with a shock collar. It depends on the dog and what method is used. I believe that positive reinforcement is the first method that should be tried, but it does not work on all dogs. It also depends on the background of the dog and his prior life style. Not all dogs came from good homes so will respond differently. I also use prong collars on my danes while out in public, but that is for my safety, not because they are bad or misbehaved dogs. I am 5'2 and my danes weigh over 350 lbs. combined while walking them. I need to make sure that I am in control at all times just in case something would happen to me or them. If I decide to just walk around the block or to the neighbors, they can also be in heel, not on leash, right be side me, all focus on me.

So, just because someone uses a shock collar does not mean it is for punishment or cruel. It could be for the safety of the animal.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
vonny, it is not shocking them into submission. The 'shock' is very minimal, I tried it on myself. If you ever put your tongue on a 9 volt battery when you were a kid, that's pretty much what it feels like. Startling, not painful. I trained Daisy all of the usual stuff without one, but once she gets on a scent, I CANNOT get her to come back. I don't think she can even hear me. I would much rather use the collar than to have her get hit by a car. 'Reasonable recall' is not acceptable to me.
 

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Originally Posted By: DaisyTheDevilDog I put it on Daisy at home, and she simply laid down. If I could get her to walk around at all, it was a totally hunkered down crawl. ~sigh~. Perhaps her previous owners used one on her improperly, or she just didn't like the feel of it. (She is small, and it's kind of a big unit.) I don't know. She looked so pitiful, I took it off. Never even turned it on. scrappy little dog that played just like Lola does, so they got along fine.

I did try the collar on Lola in the yard, and it worked for her. (I used it on myself first, to see how it felt, because I was concerned that I would hurt her. I could feel level 1 - a tingly buzzy feeling that was a little startling but not painful in the least.) Lola didn't feel level 1 at all, but did respond to level 2. Didn't yelp, just jumped back and looked around like WTH was that?! s.

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Originally Posted By: DaisyTheDevilDog, but if you could have seen the look on her little face

Anyway, first she worked them with a pinch collar, which worked but the girls could not use it inside as they got locked together. They also did not enjoy walks so she then used the e collar and trained us properly. Well it worked for Brandy, but made her quiet and nervous. Cecil, however, would do whatever she wanted to do regardless. Her little mouth would quiver and she would just say no to whatever it was. I told the trainer at the next session about this and she had to prove me right so she put it on the top level and little Cecil's mouth just quivered and she did her stubborn beagle act and refused to obey. I was so upset over all of this, I called my vet. He told me to take that shock collar off immediately and quit using the pinch collar. He told me train beagles with patience, repetition and treats, which we have done from that time on.
I just agree with my vet that beagles are not the type of breed to use a corrective collar on. This is just my opinion.
I have quoted some of your and other peoples posts.
When people mention Beagles quivering and look at their little faces etc. how can thesee things be right,
In fact the area of the UK I live in has banned them because the government feels that they are cruel.
When I say that mine have a reasonable recall what I mean is that I might have to wait a while for them to come back but they are only let to run free in a safe area.
Over the years I have shown my dogs at KC shows at Championship level and I have worked some with the Beagle club and gained working certificates.On one occasion my bitch ran into an E fence that the farmer had not turned off and she got a shock and would never work again.
 

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Vonny, running into an E fence for a cow is way different than an e collar that you put on a dog.

I am blessed and thankful that I live in the United States where they are not outlawed and ear cropping and tail docking is still allowed.

I also show my dogs in the AKC conformation ring if that matters to you.
 

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Originally Posted By: TwoLuVonny, running into an E fence for a cow is way different than an e collar that you put on a dog.

I am blessed and thankful that I live in the United States where they are not outlawed and ear cropping and tail docking is still allowed.

I also show my dogs in the AKC conformation ring if that matters to you.
Showing makes no difference to me one way or the other.
We will have to agree to differ as so many things that US dog owners think are correct are abhorrent to me and a vast majority of UK owners.
All I can say is my hounds are able to live a happy and fulfilled life.
 

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Quote:I cannot understand why so many people on this Forum have to use shock treatment to make their hounds behave,
I refuse to allow any of my dogs to roam off our property. I don't allow other dogs onto our property, and I show my neighbors the same respect by keeping our dogs on our property. In our area a dog that's bothering livestock is likely to get shot.

When we first aquired our lab he would burst through the invisible fence and take off for the fields. Using the training collar was a great way to quickly get him back home before he got into trouble. It only took a few times and he never went through the invisible fence again.

The alternative? Allow him to roam and possibly get shot. In my opinion the training collar seemed much more humaine.
 

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Originally Posted By: Pop_Rivit
Quote:I cannot understand why so many people on this Forum have to use shock treatment to make their hounds behave,
I refuse to allow any of my dogs to roam off our property. I don't allow other dogs onto our property, and I show my neighbors the same respect by keeping our dogs on our property. In our area a dog that's bothering livestock is likely to get shot.

When we first aquired our lab he would burst through the invisible fence and take off for the fields. Using the training collar was a great way to quickly get him back home before he got into trouble. It only took a few times and he never went through the invisible fence again.

The alternative? Allow him to roam and possibly get shot. In my opinion the training collar seemed much more humaine.
I could not agree more!
 

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well i dont think anyone here is going to change vonny's mind, but to vonny i ask to just not be judgemental, daisy's owner loves daisy VERY much (considering all that little stinker has done) and she clearly stated it was a last resort.

I like to think we keep an open mind here on the forum.

just my two cents.

Lets just all agree to disagree.
 

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DaisytheDevilDog I applaud you for trying everything under the sun for Daisy , it shows how much you do love and care for her! It is for her safety that you are trying this.

We can all agree we love our Beagles very much and it just comes down to different parenting styles, you try different things until you find what works for you and your fur kids
 

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Originally Posted By: vonny
All I can say is my hounds are able to live a happy and fulfilled life.
And you are implying that the posters in this thread who use correctional methods do not have hounds that are happy or living a fulfilled life? How insulting.

The vast majority of my training is positive but I will never become a trainer who limits myself to purely positive methods. Why? Because quite simply not all dogs can be trained with purely positive training. You are kidding yourself if you think they can be, or that it's the most effective method to use for all dogs. Not all dogs can be trained the same way and a good trainer will have a solid understanding of all four quadrants of dog training.

Any method that uses fear or extreme pain to train a dog is abuse and should not be acceptable, but it is a common misconception that tools like e-collars and prongs train a dog with fear or pain. The tool is only as good as the person using it.

Low stim e-collar training is an extremely useful training method for the right dog, the stim is equivalent to a flea bite. It's not used to shock the dog into submission but to communicate with the dog in an efficient and clear manner.

Here's an example of low stim e-collar training, the video shows a trainer finding the working level on a lab:
E-collar Training

Doesn't look like the dog is quivering in pain or fear to me.

It's true that beagles can, like many hounds, have soft nerves, but it's incorrect to assume that e-collar training is a harsh method. The stim the dog feels would be less than they would a leash correction and more effective in terms of communicating with them than a voice correction. IMO low stim e-collar training is one of the softest of the correctional collars.

What's important to consider is that every dog is different, even within a breed each dog is an individual with different drives and nerves.

Quote:
I cannot understand why so many people on this Forum have to use shock treatment to make their hounds behave,
I have had Beagles for 28 years and have never had to resort to shocking them into submission.
If you had any understanding of how low stim e-collar training actually works then you would understand that it's not about shocking the dog into submission at all. The lab in the video above certainly isn't acting submissively. But then again your response is typical of purely positive trainers who have very little if no understanding of positive punishment or negative reinforcement and have to resort to scare tactics to get their point across.

What works for you will not work for everyone, I prefer to learn about as many training methods as possible so I can make an educated decision about what methods to use as certainly, no one method will work on every dog.

 
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